Kate ([info]kate_nepveu) wrote,
@ 2007-08-08 22:12:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:international blog against racism week, race

IBARW: (Almost) all of the conventional race labels are dumb.

Another post I should have made earlier!

As the subject says, (almost) all of the conventional race labels are dumb. "White"? Paper is white. People of European descent—which in contemporary American discourse, and probably elsewhere too (international folks?), is what "white" really means—are pink or olive or light brown. [*] "Black"? Likewise not an accurate color description. I've known people who self-identified as "black" who had skin lighter than me.

And more: since white is, as we were all taught in elementary school, the absence of color, it implies that color and therefore race is something only other people have (from the point of view of the dominant "white" population, which is after all the one that matters. </sarcasm>). And "black" and "white" are thought of as opposites, which unfortunately has been made true in a lot of ways when it comes to people, not paint chips, but is still a rotten implication.

[*] I know some people use "pink," which I rather like, but I think that it wouldn't be quite accurate for a lot of people with ancestors in southern Europe, along the Mediterranean, who in current discourse count as "white."

"[Location]-American/British" (etc.) is an identity statement that's not universally true. (An unhyphenated "Asian," unless the person is literally living in Asia, is worse, because it only acknowledges foreignness.) "Native American" is apparently only used by outsiders, and "native" has (to me at least) a faint connotation of "primitive." "Latino/a" and "Hispanic," those are my "almost": I'm ignorant and all I know about them is that people outside those groups tend to get them horribly confused, and perhaps there's also variant usage within the groups; I don't know if they have any negative implications. If anyone with knowledge would care to comment or to point me to useful sources, I would appreciate it.

As for group labels: "People of color" or "non-whites"? Same problem as "white." "Racial minority"? Err, only in limited contexts. Asia alone has 60% of the world's population.

What these labels actually mean, in the ways I hear them used, is, "this is where this person's ancestors came from far enough back that almost all of the people around them looked basically like them, or just where their ancestor (singular) came from if we can tell that the ancestor was from Africa and we're in America and maybe some other places too." So, as I already said, "white" people are really people of European descent; "Asians" are really people of Asian descent; "black" people are really people of (some) African descent; and so forth.

And yet, you will notice that rarely in all this week's discussions have I said, "people of European descent," or "people of African descent," or "people of Asian descent." I've tried, where I thought that level of precision would be helpful, but you know what? The phrases are just too cumbersome in ordinary language.

So I find myself, reluctantly, using "white" and so forth. I don't want to, and I wish there were something better. But at least when I use these terms, I'm aware of some of the implications in them and try to keep those implications from influencing my thoughts.

I'm sure I've missed something, besides my ignorance on "Latino/a" and "Hispanic": tell me!



(Post a new comment)


[info]kalmn
2007-08-09 02:22 am UTC (link)
instead of native american, i quite like the canadian term "first nations people". i grew up saying indian but it's imprecise as well as being impolite.

you left out the whole poc/"but pink is a color!" labelling discussion. although i can understand repressing it due to trauma. ;)

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 02:25 am UTC (link)
It's my understanding that in the U.S., "Indian" is actually preferred, though I welcome correction on that too. I try for "American Indian" to distinguish from the subcontinent.

And I think I missed that one, and I am glad.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kintail
2007-08-09 01:09 pm UTC (link)
I am partly First Nations Canadian, and I once heard from an American Indian friend that the reason many American Indians "prefer" to use Indian is because 1) that's what the US census bureau requires, *and* 2) because it's what is used in the treaties outlining rights or territory they were supposed to be granted -- so when trying to apply for or fight for treaty rights, they have to define themselves by the word used in the treaties.

I particularly like First Nations because it has the connotation of several different and distinct self-governing groups -- not a homogenous single one. First Peoples gets used sometimes too (usually talking about history, eg, the first European explorers met and traded with the First Peoples), but it doesn't have that right-to-self-governing implication. Or such is my interpretation.

Thanks for this post!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 03:46 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the information. I'd been thinking the reported preference for "Indian" was something along the lines of "oh, stop inflicting your white liberal mouthfuls on us."

I don't hear "First Nations" used in America at all; did your friend have any comment on that, or on an actually-preferred term?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]smillaraaq
2007-08-10 12:35 am UTC (link)
Oh huh, I would've sworn the last time I had to deal with census forms they were using "Native American", but looking around census.gov shows my memory is blurring; they're using "American Indian". I must have been conflating that with all the similar endless checkboxes on school and scholarship stuff. Bureaucratese all blurs together in my head. :P

As for use of the "First Nations" terminology in the US, I've personally not seen it (unless one is talking with or about Canadian native issues). I do personally quite like the phrasing, for some of the same reasons Kintail notes, and because it doesn't leave room for the "HURF HURF WHY CAN'T *I* CHECK OFF NATIVE AMERICAN, I WAS BORN IN AMERICA!" snark I've heard one too many times. But I personally don't use it, well outside of those Canadian-specific sort of circumstances, because folks on this side of the border just don't seem as familiar with the terminology.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cofax7
2007-08-12 03:10 am UTC (link)
Legally, "Native American" is more inclusive than "Indian", although they're used interchangeably in the vernacular. Under federal law there are Native Americans who are not Indian tribal members, but not the reverse. It's... complicated (as almost any generalization about upwards of 500 separate sovereign entities and myriad "unrecognized" groups must be).

My post on tribal sovereignty has a link to a good essay on why the confusion on the terminology persists.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-13 02:08 pm UTC (link)
Cross-reference: http://cofax7.livejournal.com/470420.html

Thanks. I'm glancingly familiar with some of the litigation around land claims in New York, but it's always helpful to have the basics laid out so clearly.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]smillaraaq
2007-08-10 12:07 am UTC (link)
I'm Seneca. So far as the US side goes, well, it depends. Just judging from friends and family, "Indian" seems to be much more preferred by older generations in particular, and a heck of a lot more common in casual conversation; some folks who prefer it may still tend to *use* "Native American" in certain settings -- it's the label insisted on for official stuff like censuses, it does allow for grouping with the Aleut and Inuit in a way "American Indian" doesn't, and as you've noted it helps avoid the confusion with people from India, etc.; but I certainly don't know a lot of folks who *prefer* NA. Those few I've known who do prefer it for whatever reason can be very, very intense about their feelings on the subject...but so can those who prefer "Indian", really, as seen in this passage from Sherman Alexie:

"Why do you insist on calling yourselves Indian?" asks a white woman in a nice hat. "It's so demeaning."

"Listen," I say. "The word belongs to us now. We are Indians. That has nothing to do with Indians from India. We are not American Indians. We are Indians, pronounced In-din. It belongs to us. We own it and we're not going to give it back."

So much has been taken from us that we hold onto the smallest things left with all the strength we have."


For myself, I'll use NA in more formal settings like academia where it generally seems to be expected, I'll use Indian or sometimes NA for clarity in more casual conversation, I'll use Indian or other slangy terms around other Indian folks. But as long as I'm not getting told by someone non-Indian that I *should* be using a particular term, and not getting called anything blatantly offensive, I'm not particularly bent out of shape over whichever term others want to use.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-10 01:10 am UTC (link)
Thanks, that is useful. I try to remember, as the article you link to below says (interesting read, thanks), that a tribal designation is preferable, but sometimes one's talking at a broader level of generality than that.

Do you think it's possible or worthwhile to try and adopt "First Nations" in U.S. discourse?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]smillaraaq
2007-08-10 03:34 am UTC (link)
I'm just not sure, really, on either side of the question; while I personally like the term, given the existing range of opinions on the two most commonly-used labels, I don't think just throwing another option into the mix is going any easier for a majority consensus to be reached. And just trying to add another choice to the menu is bound to get grumblings (from folks on both sides) about PC terminology-changing, so I can very easily see it going the way of the portmanteau Amerind/Amerindian as something that sounds like a cool new option but just never really catches on.

Plus, if it DID catch on stateside, you're then left with the question of how to quickly designate whether you're talking about Native issues in Canada or the US. That's the main context I find myself using the term in; when I'm talking politics or music or whatever involving groups from both sides of the border, it does help to have a bit of shorthand to indicate which area is involved without having to tack on national designations each and every time...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-10 01:35 pm UTC (link)
Makes sense, thanks.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]smillaraaq
2007-08-11 04:25 am UTC (link)
And if you want another random anecdote-is-not-the-plural-of-data point, good for what you paid for it... *grin*

I just got back in from attending the National Powwow in DC. And over the course of ten-odd hours, I only noticed one instance of the various announcers and MCs and comics using "Native American" instead of "Indian" or naming the specific nation/tribe/band/etc.. Now, in all fairness I should also note that I was not specifically paying attention to or trying to count this, and there probably were a few more instances that I missed by hanging out in the lobby gabbing, making vital frybread runs, and so forth. So the actual numbers were quite likely higher than one -- but in terms of overall proportion of use it was uncommon enough to be noticeable when it was used.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]smillaraaq
2007-08-10 12:41 am UTC (link)
P.S. you might be interested in this article with further quotes on the terminology debate and numbers from a 1995 survey on the Indian vs. Native American preference. It's pretty much like the mascot debate; you'll find a lot of folks with strong feelings on either side of the debate, and a lot more in various points in the middle...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]dsgood
2007-08-09 02:55 am UTC (link)
Except that "first nations" also includes Inuit and Aleut (though the latter don't live in Canada.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]lbmango
2007-08-09 02:25 am UTC (link)
1) I always call myself "green" because I have a somewhat olive complexion (more so when I tan)

2) I've been confused for someone of every ethnicity except northern european. Seriously. I have no idea what this says, but I find it ammusing.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 02:40 am UTC (link)
2) Did it ever occur in a way that made you the victim of racial prejudice?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]lbmango
2007-08-09 02:07 pm UTC (link)
Not that I've noticed. More often than not, it's members of my own immediate family making the mistake. not recognizing a picture of me because they think it's someone of a different ethnicity, etc...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 03:47 pm UTC (link)
Family members! I think that would give me an entirely different set of issues and insights . . .

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]rachelmanija
2007-08-11 10:18 pm UTC (link)
This just occurred to me as something that might interest you: I too sometimes get inquiries about my ancestry, because I have what to me look like very classic Ashkenazi Jewish features (which you will soon get to observe in person), but what that means is that my ethnic heritage is Middle Eastern by way of Eastern Europe. So not only do Jews ask me if I'm Jewish, but people who descend from or immigrated from those areas sometimes ask if I'm one of them-- Armenian, Hungarian, Iranian, etc, plus occasionally Latina.

But since all those people are asking out of (sometimes misplaced) solidarity, and most white people tend to think I'm white like them, I've never been the victim of mistaken identity racial prejudice that I know of.

When I get those inquiries from non-Jews, I usually say, "No, I'm Jewish," because even though that's not a racial or national identity, it explains to people why they made that mistake-- I do come from somewhere in the general area they were thinking of. (I used to say, "No, I'm Lithuanian," but that just confused people, as apparently most people don't know where that is.) They usually respond with some expression of Jewish-Syrian/Armenian/whatever solidarity.

The flip side of that is that I can't recall anyone ever deliberately saying something anti-Semitic to me because they knew I was Jewish, but I have had people make anti-Semitic comments to or around me because they assumed I wasn't.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]dsgood
2007-08-09 02:59 am UTC (link)
When I was at my darkest-skinned (darker than most African-Americans, though rather lighter than East Africans), I was once asked if I was African or Arab. And I had someone address me in a language I didn't know. "I'm sorry, I thought you were Bengali."

I was somewhat lighter-skinned when I encountered someone who was prejudiced against me because I he thought I was Greek, and the two men who made nasty comments about Mexicans which they meant me to overhear.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 03:02 am UTC (link)
Yup. Skin color is only part of what race means in America.

I really, really want to get to a long meaty post on some of the other parts. I need this week to be less busy.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]calimac
2007-08-09 10:08 am UTC (link)
I went to a Portuguese community festival wearing my Greek fisherman's cap, and found myself addressed in Portuguese. I am not Portuguese (nor Greek), and even if I had been, most of the Portuguese-ancestral people I know personally don't speak it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]mmcirvin
2007-08-09 02:08 pm UTC (link)
The only time something like that ever happened to me was on a Lufthansa flight, where I got addressed in German by default...

(On the ground in Germany it must have been easier to detect the American rays emanating from my manner and dress. Though I do recall getting the "are you Canadian?" thing in Europe because people don't want to risk insulting Canadians by mistaking them for Americans.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 03:56 pm UTC (link)
people don't want to risk insulting Canadians by mistaking them for Americans.

Heh.

Tangential anecdote:

I was in Dublin at my first con, and asked a group of people whether folks on the street would be able to tell that I was American because of my clothes.

There was a pause, and someone said something that boiled down to, "no, dear, they'd be able to tell because of your face."

Which kind of startled me.

Today I think this illustrates my unconscious default of thinking I'm white and therefore my skin is not the most noticable thing about me in predominantly white areas. Also, of course, the Asian-as-foreigner stereotype, though that probably has more basis in fact in Dublin than other places, or at least did ten years ago?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]hermetic
2007-08-09 07:45 am UTC (link)
Re: Hispanic and Latina/o

As used by those of us to whom it applies? (Sweeping generalizations from my particular experience, of course.)

It depends on context. Currently, Latino/a is in vogue and going strong, and generally refers to anyone of Latin American descent including lusophones (and on occasion, francophones), but not usually Peninsular Spaniards or Portuguese, primarily in the US, but also internationally. It has a certain pan-national flavor to it.

Hispanic (in English) usually refers to people of hispanophone ancestry, including Spaniards, in the US. It was introduced as a term by the US Census Bureau, and had its heyday during the Eighties. Consequence of which, having grown up then, it's a moniker I reach for frequently. Also, because hispano, in Spanish, is used for people of Spanish blood- or cultural-descent and/or hispanophones--that one overlaps folks in Spain and Latin America. Hispano is often used with the same kind of appeal on shared roots as latino, although only for the Spanish-speaking world.

In general, within the US, you're better off using Latino/a, as it will most often be applicable.

A lot of us tend to just use our ancestral origin when identifying, cf. many Bostonians being Irish. "Latino, sure. But really, I'm Mexican." Or Mexican-American. Or Chicano. Or pocho. Or de este lado. Or American. Or americano. Or--and this one's the truest one, if you ask me--Californian. It depends on who's asking and why.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 04:00 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. I did a quick web look and wasn't sure about what I'd found, but on reflection that look was a lot more cursory than it should have been even if I did want to go to bed. I apologize for asking for asking to be educated when I could have done more research on my own, and I appreciate your nevertheless taking the time to give me such a useful and detailed answer.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]hermetic
2007-08-09 08:56 pm UTC (link)
You're quite welcome. It was my pleasure, and I know well how sleep trumps--well, just about everything.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]redbird
2007-08-09 12:16 pm UTC (link)
I do say "European-American" sometimes, but that's a deliberate attempt to call attention to both the fact that my ancestors were immigrants, just like yours and those of my Black friends and neighbors, and to some of what is and isn't lumped together. (Most Americans treat Greek and Italian ancestry as being more different than Ethiopian and Zulu, for example.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Which sounds to me like a deliberate identity statement for you, which I have no problem with--and even if I did, it would hardly be any of my business. But "Asian-American" doesn't describe my own identity and so I don't like imposing it as a blanket term for people of Asian descent living in the United States.

(Also, very small nit: I was a foreign adoption, so my ancestors weren't immigrants.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Mea culpa
[info]redbird
2007-08-09 11:25 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, I expressed myself carelessly. (I probably shouldn't attempt to address serious posts on my way out of the house in the morning, but that's an advice-to-self for the future.)

Of course lots of Americans' ancestors weren't immigrants, because (like yours) they never lived in the U.S. [And then there are people like my mother and aunts: they immigrated before their parents did.]

I don't tend to identify as "European-American," but it's a term worth bringing out now and again to remind certain pale-skinned people that there's something anomalous about defining other people by large terms like "Asian-American" and "African-American" and then defining people of European descent either in much finer gradations, or as "Americans" without a modifier.

It gets complicated in lots of directions, of course, including that the use of "African-American" is partly a response both to the labeling of many white people by geographic ancestry and blacks by color, and to the way in which bigots manage to make any term for the people they look down on into a slur, and thus new terms are sought that we hope will have fewer negative connotations.

[I hope the above clarifies somewhat.]

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mea culpa
[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-10 01:13 am UTC (link)
Okay, that does clarify.

Do you find that it has your desired effect?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mea culpa
[info]redbird
2007-08-10 01:26 am UTC (link)
Perhaps in a small way. It's not hitting people with the Codfish of Enlightenment.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mea culpa
[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-10 01:38 am UTC (link)
Codfish of Enlightenment

. . . where do I get one?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Cod stocks are sadly depleted, alas
[info]redbird
2007-08-10 02:01 am UTC (link)
The codfish is [info]oursin's vertebrate-of-enlightenment, though at one point when [info]rysmiel said something about hitting people with the largest fish they could lift, [info]pleonastic offered to be said fish. (I don't know whether rysmiel could lift Pleonastic, but doubt they could swing zir effectively.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Cod stocks are sadly depleted, alas
[info]pleonastic
2007-08-10 02:57 am UTC (link)
i SWEAR i was not ego-grepping. :) i had forgotten all about that, thanks for reminding me.

i am gonna say what i was gonna say here instead of making two separate comments.

[*] I know some people use "pink," which I rather like, but I think that it wouldn't be quite accurate for a lot of people with ancestors in southern Europe, along the Mediterranean, who in current discourse count as "white."

i would use this if i were pink. i sometimes say "beige", though more facetiously. i actually like removing "white" from the current discourse whenever i can, and have been trying to replace it by "people of european descent", but yes, it's awfully unwieldy (though not quite as bad as trying to swing me effectively). maybe acronymizing it would help -- PoEDs. hm...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Cod stocks are sadly depleted, alas
[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-10 02:06 pm UTC (link)
PoEDs probably would get confused with poets, alas, but if it catches on, do let me know. =>

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]slrose
2007-08-09 12:53 pm UTC (link)
I just realized that my personal label of 'hispanic' means 'person-whose-main-language-is-Spanish' because I don't speak Spanish, and may have trouble talking with them.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 04:06 pm UTC (link)
I was told, years ago, by a Spanish professor that Hispanic meant native Spanish speaker, and thus she was Hispanic though her family was, IIRC, from Russia in relatively recent memory. (Maybe she had Sephardic ancestry? I forget.)

But as [info]hermetic was kind enough to discuss above, this isn't a universal definition.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]lbmango
2007-08-09 02:09 pm UTC (link)
On the hispanic issue... I always wondered if Brazilians took issue with that because they don't speak spanish... Latina/o does solve that problem at least.

and is Chicano considered only Mexican?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]hermetic
2007-08-09 03:32 pm UTC (link)
In my experience, the Brazilians I've met have taken issue with being called Hispanic. They're not, after all. It's kind of like everyone else living in the Americas being somewhat annoyed at only people in the US being called Americans.

As for Chicanos, yes--it's specifically Mexican-Americans, and has some political tones to it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cakmpls
2007-08-09 02:52 pm UTC (link)
Labels that purport to identify skin color are rather surreal. Our younger son is amused that he is considered a "person of color" and I'm considered "white," when his skin is lighter than mine--and I'm a fair-skinned person of Irish/English/Scottish/German background.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-09 04:08 pm UTC (link)
Yup. Humans can construct such interestingly convoluted things, don't they?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]smillaraaq
2007-08-10 12:19 am UTC (link)
I've always found that whole "-- of color" terminology offputting for just that reason. My mom's Indian, my dad's white: I got her bone structure and his coloring; and that's ALL I got from him as my folks divorced when I was very young, so he had no part in my upbringing, and I know nothing about his family. So genetically, sure, I know that I'm half-white; visually, I know that I'm pale enough that most folks will assume that I'm white; but culturally, the only family background I was raised with is the Indian side. So while I can see the utility of having shorthand terms for talking about such broad categories, this particular shorthand has always made me feel like folks like me were invisible.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

A bit more background on 'color' names
[info]hossgal
2007-08-10 12:51 am UTC (link)
Thank you for this post - I found myself mostly in agreement. (Except for the part about "pink" - my loathing of that color was well established before I came across 'pinky' as a slang for 'whitey', and has only increased since. I want nothing to do with it as a racial label, above and beyond my general displeasure with the color labels. However, people who really like rose and salmon colors may well disagree. *g*)

Having said that - and only speaking from what I've read and seen, not telling anyone they have to agree with this - (and I apologize if you knew this already) the term 'black' was, in the USA (and South Africa) originally only applied to people of 'pure' African blood, who tended to have very dark skin, to the point of a blue undertone. "Colored" meant a person of mixed European and African descent (or a Native American or of Asian descent) - a person who looked more 'brown' - ie - most people who consider themselves 'African-American' today in the USA. I get the impression that it was held that 'black' had the additional meaning of 'unschooled barbarian savage' or 'unlettered field hand', while 'colored' meant 'more like Europeans'.

In the post-Civil War era, it was considered (in 'white' society? in both cultures? I don't know) far more polite to call a person 'colored' than 'black' or 'Negro'. During the 1950's and 60's civil rights struggle, 'black' was reclaimed as a means of saying "we are very different from you, and we're not ashamed of it" to 'white' society. It wasn't until the '80s when Jesse Jackson started promoting 'African American'.

If you really want to get into confusing different takes on slang names for ethnic groups, ask three or four people of different ethnic/socio-economic groups from different countries in Latin America about 'gringo', 'negro' and 'blanco'.

- hossgal

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: A bit more background on 'color' names
[info]kate_nepveu
2007-08-10 01:20 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure I knew about "pinky"/"whitey," but I share your distaste for both.

I was generally aware of most of the history you mention, but not the original use of "black." I'm sad to say it doesn't much surprise me.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…