Kate ([info]kate_nepveu) wrote,
@ 2007-09-04 07:34:00
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Entry tags:bittercon, cons, nippon 2007, worldcon

Nippon 2007: Levels and Limits of Metafictionality
This was the only panel I was on at Worldcon--and indeed my first ever. The description was exactly the same as the Bittercon panel:

"Stories about stories. When can the teller of a story successfully interact with the story, and when is it a cheat?"

This may have been a mistake--it may have attracted more people if it had been more detailed.



The panel did not start auspiciously: I was setting up in the front of the room, another panelist had just come in, there were people in the audience . . . and a con staffer came in and said the panel had been cancelled.

Err, what?

Well, two of the four panelists had to bow out (it was scheduled for 4 pm and the Hugos started at 6 pm), and so someone--not sure who--decided that the panel should be cancelled. We said, "do we have to?," and very sensibly the messenger said "of course not."

I spent the next five minutes, until my co-panelist came back from an errand and it was time to start, appealing to the audience to think of things to talk about and telling newcomers that if they were coming to see the two non-attendees, they could quietly slip out now, no hard feelings.

Despite that less than promising beginning, I think it went well. The audience was small but had a lot of good things to say, my co-panelist had some very useful and thought-provoking comments, and I don't think I said anything too stupid, talked too fast, or let dead air sit too long.

Anyway, I think we started with a bit of definition. I wanted to do this because I'd been mentally defining metafiction as "stories in which characters are aware that some aspect of the story *is* a story," but realized when talking with Scott Edelman (one of the originally-scheduled panelists) beforehand that this was overly narrow. He defined it as anything in which the reader is reminded that the story *is* a story. I think that's more useful than my definition; it's just that my definition is the subset that interests me most.

My co-panelist said that she was interested in metafiction because she teached post-colonialist literature and metafiction comes in around the edges there. Under colonialism, the colonized aren't free to fully express their identities: they are very aware of identity as a _performative_ thing. Also, traditional forms of story-telling have ritual aspects--their purpose isn't to be literally believed. Both of these lend themselves to metafiction, stories that are aware of and express their nature as stories.

(I thought this was really interesting in light of _Covering_ and mentioned that briefly before going back to literature.)

I also introduced four categories of _purposes_ or effects of metafiction that I had identified:

1. Illuminate story itself. The most obvious. Things like how stories work and the writing process.

2. Story as magic. See Discworld & the Secret Country Trilogy. (Arguably this is a subset of the other categories, but it's common enough that I thought it deserved recognition.)

3. Comment on something else. The anime _Princess Tutu_ uses the fact that the characters' stories are being written by another character to comment on comformity & complacency. Stephen King uses story to comment on addiction and duality in the Dark Tower series, among other works.

4. Working out authorial guilt. => See the _Animal Man_ example in comments to the Bittercon post, and also _Princess Tutu_ again ("Why can't I stop hurting her?!").

And from there, I stop having detailed recollections. Here's what I do remember:

* Consensus that you can do anything as long as the execution is good: not jolt the reader out of the story even though you remind them it is a story; writerly navel-gazing about the process of writing (Vonnegut's last novel; the movie _Adaptation_).

* Spinning off the mystery comment by [info]burger_eater from last time:

** A kids' Scandinavian (sorry, I forget which country) book about two kids who have read too much Agatha Christie and play detective, and eventually find out that crime is not a fun puzzle but nasty and sordid;

** Block, _The Burglar in the Library_, where Bernie explains his reasoning by saying that he'd been thinking the crime was a cozy mystery, but when realized it was a noir, he could solve it.

* Metafictional structures are another way of setting up reader expectations. My co-panelist suggested _Hyperion_; I wondered if the switch out of the Canterbury Tales mode was a possible explanation for why _Fall_ is generally thought of as not as good. She thought yes, because changing gears on readers can lose some of them; also, the removal of structure may have not been a good thing for the author.

** Relatedly, meta on a more formal structural level can be a way of subverting expectations. Calvino's _If on a winter's night_ mentioned. ([info]mdevnich, I think this was your comment, and I'm not sure I'm doing it justice. Help?)

* My co-panelist asked if there was anything specific to SF that lent itself to meta? Which I thought was an excellent question. Off the top of my head, I suggested that any genre which is aware of its history may find itself doing self-referential things and therefore be open to meta.

** Audience member pointed out that the Hugo-nominated episode of _Stargate SG-1_, "200", does this. Apparently the characters are watching a show, or imagining their actions as a show?

** I said, duh, _Galaxy Quest_! Except that thinking abouot it, it's both meta & whatever the inverse is, because while the human characters treat the events as a story and act according to story rules, the emotional payoff is: "It's all real."

That's all the thematic stuff I can remember.

New examples from the audience:

* _Stranger than Fiction_, recent movie w/Emma Thompson & Will Ferrell -- meta is the whole point.

* famous Scandinavian story called "How the Child Is Killed" (or similar) which is just that: this is the child that will be hit by a car, the car that will hit the child is driving down the street, etc. The inevitability is the point.

* Musical that has a mime act (? sorry, I really should have taken notes) running parallel to an opera tragedy. The non-opera performers end up interacting with the opera; the effect is to undercut the tragic self-importance of the opera.

* John Barnes, _One for the Morning Glory_. To paraphrase: one character says, stories don't end like this. Another: stories don't, but we don't know what part of the story we're in. (very close paraphrase): "There were a hundred dead princes on the thorns outside Sleeping Beauty's castle, and I'm sure many of them were splendid fellows."



Anyway, I had a really great time, for which I am *abjectly* grateful to the audience, who contributed so much and kept the conversation flowing in a way that just two panelists could never hope to do. The audience really made this panel work and I hope they enjoyed it half as much as I did.

As I said then, if anyone there has more to add, or wants to tell me what I've forgotten, please do. And I welcome further discussion from everyone else, as always. I'm temporarily turning off screening of anonymous comments to faciliatate the discussion--though from Wednesday through Friday, Japan time, I'll be offline.

Oh, and if it's a spoiler, either ROT13 it or put it between <span style="color: #999999; background-color: #999999"> </span>. Thanks.



(33 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]yhlee
2007-09-04 01:22 am UTC (link)
This sounds like it was really neat--thank you for writing up the notes!

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 12:52 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

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[info]sartorias
2007-09-04 01:55 am UTC (link)
That's so nifty. I'm going to see if anyone wants to go into it more, over on my LJ.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 12:52 pm UTC (link)
Cross-ref: http://sartorias.livejournal.com/218587.html

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[info]dsgood
2007-09-04 04:08 am UTC (link)
Luigi Pirandello's play, "Six Characters in Search of an Author" probably qualifies as metafiction.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 01:09 pm UTC (link)
Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Characters_in_Search_of_an_Author

Yes, certainly.

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[info]dsgood
2007-09-04 04:15 am UTC (link)
In sf, possibly metafiction (depending on definition): Paul Park's A Princess of Roumania, with our world turning out to be fictional. Philip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle. Jack Chalker's "Wonderland Gambit" trilogy.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 01:10 pm UTC (link)
I haven't read any of these, but I take it that it's important that our world is fictional, i.e., the subject of stories?

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[info]silveraspen
2007-09-04 04:57 am UTC (link)
Oh, fascinating! Thanks for sharing the writeup of how it went -- it sounds really interesting.

You already mentioned Stephen King and the Dark Tower series, which I would agree is a very clear example of metafictionality in terms of external commentary. He also does other types of metafictionality in other works of his. I'm thinking specifically of Bag of Bones and Lisey's Story as examples of both "story as magic" and "illumination of the writing process."

What about something like Orson Scott Card's Pastwatch?

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 12:53 pm UTC (link)
Thanks. And I've not read any of your new works cited; care to expand, possibly with spoiler protection?

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[info]silveraspen
2007-09-24 02:50 am UTC (link)
Oh wow, I meant to reply to this quite some time ago and just now found it in my to-do file. Sorry for the delay!

In Bag of Bones, gur prageny punenpgre vf n jevgre jub rkcrevraprf jevgref' oybpx sbyybjvat gur qrngu bs uvf jvsr. Va riragf gung sbyybj, vg orpbzrf pyrne gung gur cebprff bs perngvat gur fgbel -- jvgu harkcrpgrq uryc -- qrsvarf UBJ obbxf ner jevggra naq oyhef gur yvarf orgjrra fgbel naq ernyvgl. I realize that's a little vague; I can give more detail if desired. (I also hope I got the ROT-13 trick right, let me know if not!)

Lisey's Story features n jbzna jubfr uhfonaq, n jevgre, unf erpragyl qvrq. Va fbegvat guebhtu uvf rssrpgf (fgberq va uvf bssvpr), jr qvfpbire zber nobhg gur irel erny bgure jbeyq-- gur jbeyq bs "Obbln Zbba"-- jurer ur tbg n ahzore bs vqrnf sebz naq jnf nyfb culfvpnyyl (naq zragnyyl) noyr gb geniry gb... naq juvpu riraghnyyl xvyyrq uvz, va n irel harkcrpgrq jnl.

Card's Pastwatch: the Redemption of Christopher Columbus pbagenfgf uvfgbevpny riragf jvgu gur npgvbaf bs n shghevfgvp fbpvrgl gung unf qvfpbirerq gvzr geniry naq hfrf vg gb tb onpx vagb gur cnfg naq nygre riragf gurer sbe gur terngre tbbq. Gur xvpxre? Zhpu bs gur nygrengvba vf qbar guebhtu gur hfr bs fgbevrf naq snvel gnyrf nf zrgncubevpny iruvpyr naq cnenoyr.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-24 01:43 pm UTC (link)
I think I like the last one the best, though I'm not much interested in reading Card these days. Thanks for expanding!

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[info]ex_greythist387
2007-09-04 07:07 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the report! Wish I could've heard this.

Metafictional structures are another way of setting up reader expectations.

Agreed, and re: Hyperion in particular, I'd make this stronger: they facilitate the satisfaction of reader expectations, since everyone can see part of the moving target. When I taught Hyperion, I learned very quickly which students had met even a reference to Chaucer before, and which had not, because they had drastically different reactions to what the story-bits were "supposed" to be doing. "Part" of the target because, obviously, a story can be attempting multiple things; in that class we read some Keats beforehand....

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 12:55 pm UTC (link)
Does this have to do with the ending?

(ObAnecdote: friend who was furious with me because I recced that book to him and didn't tell him there was a sequel. I thought it said so on the cover!)

I read that duology when I was way too young and looked up Keats *after*. =>

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[info]ex_greythist387
2007-09-08 04:45 am UTC (link)
Partly to do with the ending, yes, but also with the sense for ?two-thirds of the volume that we aren't really moving forwards. Of course, reading something in a class perturbs the angle of repose anyway--they were alarmed when we reached Moneta and more alarmed when I told them a little about the, hm, affective range of Chaucer's CTales (particularly the Miller and the Reeve).

The letdown of expectation, though--I wonder. I was dissatisfied with Fall because it seemed too gleeful about something that I still can't identify. It suffered (for me) from close proximity to Clarke, Asimov, and Silverberg, whose works were less ambitious, perhaps, but did a better job of filling the spaces they sought to carve out.

(heh. Well, I didn't read much *relevant* Keats till later, when I met the later Romantics in a grad seminar....)

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[info]mdevnich
2007-09-04 10:25 am UTC (link)
meta on a more formal structural level can be a way of subverting expectations

IIRC, that was something you brought up later in the panel. I think that Hyperion was also mentioned in that context... I'd originally mentioned _If on a winter's night a traveler_ as an example of the kind of structural games that come to my mind as "metafiction". Of course, with the "you, the reader" frame story, he arguably has a character aware he's in a story, so it overlaps with your definition too.

It was a good discussion; thanks for hanging around after your fellow panelists deserted you!

--
Unrelated: there is a typhoon headed for Tokyo, scheduled to hit Thursday. It's no danger if you're in a modern building, but I didn't know if it would screw up your travel schedule. Info here: https://metocph.nmci.navy.mil/jtwc.php (Typhoon Fitow)

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-05 01:03 am UTC (link)
Weather-only, as I am in a hurry:

Eek!

We are leaving Tokyo for Takayama today, Wednesday morning, and going to Osaka on Friday morning, to fly out Saturday afternoon.

*goes to look for Takayama weather forecast*

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 12:56 pm UTC (link)
I see that over at [info]sartorias people are talking about definitions; mine is *not* formal in any way, just what I understand people to be talking about when they use it.

I really have to read _If on . . . _

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[info]nikojen
2007-09-04 12:19 pm UTC (link)
* famous Scandinavian story called "How the Child Is Killed" (or similar) which is just that: this is the child that will be hit by a car, the car that will hit the child is driving down the street, etc. The inevitability is the point.

Oh, must look into this one a bit more. That brief description reminds me a lot of the interactive fiction work, Photopia. Lbh yrnea rneyl ba gung gurer'f n tvey xvyyrq va n pne penfu, naq nf vg'f vagrenpgvir, lbh rkcrpg gung lbh'yy or noyr gb fnir ure... rkprcg gung varivgnovyvgl bs gur rirag vf gur jubyr cbvag.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 12:58 pm UTC (link)
I don't know if anyone will be able to track it down from that def., but if you can, please report back here? Thanks.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 01:04 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and did you play the game unspoiled? What was your reaction?

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[info]alanajoli
2007-09-04 02:36 pm UTC (link)
I've always thought that the Muppets are a wonderful example of metafiction. (In The Great Muppet Caper, there's this exchange:
Miss Piggy: Why are you telling me all of this?
Piggy's Boss: It's plot exposition. It has to go somewhere.
I suspect that this exchange is one of the ideas that first interested me in how fiction works.)

What about works that comment on the nature of story, but distance themselves from it? I was going to suggest Peter S. Beagle's The Last Unicorn, but now that I think about it, every time the characters comment on how stories work, it's to say, "But the real world works like that." (One line is, "There are no happy endings, because nothing ever ends.") Does that awareness of "we are not a story" inside of a novel also constitute a type of metafiction?

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 01:02 pm UTC (link)
Like I said above, I don't know that my definition is, err, definitive; but to me a comment like that would remind me that well, actually, no, you *are* in a story, and thus jolt my willing suspension of disbelief.

I'm not sure about _The Last Unicorn_ specifically, because it's been ages since I read it and it didn't work for me very well then--I found the tone shifts jarring.

What effect does a comment like that have on you when you're reading?

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[info]tool_of_satan
2007-09-04 08:49 pm UTC (link)
I was trying to think of examples when you asked for them pre-Worldcon, but of course I couldn't think of any. However, one now occurs to me: Peter David's Sir Apropos of Nothing. Apropos is an unlikable cuss with a bad leg, and partway through the book ur ernyvmrf gung uvf "sevraq" (jub jbhyq or n gbgny Znel Fhr vs ur jrer gur npghny cebgntbavfg bs gur obbx) vf gur cebgntbavfg bs gur fgbel, naq ur'f whfg nebhaq gb tvir gur sevraq fbzrbar gb qrzbafgengr uvf abovyvgl ba. Fb ur nggnpxf uvz naq syvrf njnl ba uvf cubravk (frr cerivbhf pbzzrag ba Znel Fhr-vfz), gnxvat bire uvf cynpr va gur fgbel.

The book isn't half-bad, despite David's penchant for puns Piers Anthony wouldn't stoop to[*]. It has a shout-out to Zhu-ge Liang from Romance of the Three Kingdoms[**], which pleased me since I like to feel I got something out of slogging through that awful translation. The second book is not as good but does have some metafictional aspects (I'm thinking particularly about the bit where Tolkien's Ring quest is re-imagined, er, interestingly). The third I can't really recommend.

[*] This is of course hyperbole: there is nothing Piers Anthony wouldn't stoop to.

[**] As opposed to the historical Zhu-ge Liang, who probably never did anything so interesting.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 01:04 pm UTC (link)
That is an interesting example, thanks very much.

And what bad translation, so I can avoid it?

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(Anonymous)
2007-09-07 03:12 pm UTC (link)
The translation I read is the one by C. H. Brewitt-Taylor. It's probably not a bad translation qua translation, but I found the English prose style stultifying. It's available on Google Book Search if you want to sample it for yourself.

I haven't looked at Moss Robert's translation, but I would think it has to be better. Also, I am told that Roberts includes lots of notes and maps and so forth, which would be handy unless you are already familiar with 3rd-century China.

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[info]tool_of_satan
2007-09-07 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, that was me.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 10:48 pm UTC (link)
Thanks very much. The Moss Roberts one is what I had my eye on.

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[info]strangerian
2007-09-05 02:49 am UTC (link)
Found this via [info]sartorias, and maybe I can identify one of the examples:
Musical that has a mime act running parallel to an opera tragedy. The non-opera performers end up interacting with the opera; the effect is to undercut the tragic self-importance of the opera.

This sounds a lot like Ariadne Auf Naxos, a Richard Strauss opera. In the first act, a character (called merely The Composer) writes a Serious, Tragical, Very Very Artistic Opera -- The Composer is fairly young -- for performance at a rich patron's fete. The patron decides it will run too long, and has it combined with a troupe of commedia dell'arte actors also giving a performance. The second act is the double performance itself: The Commedia heroine openly mocks the Very Very Seriously Tragical Opera storyline and improvises (or "improvises," since Strauss's opera isn't improvised) a comic parallel to the opera-within-an-opera plot. It can be lugubrious or funny or both at the same time, depending on the performance, and the meta aspects are definitely there.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 01:06 pm UTC (link)
That sounds exactly the thing, thank you so very much. And I'm fascinated to hear that the effect could be *just* lugubrious--I wouldn't have thought that possible.

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[info]orzelc
2007-09-09 10:45 am UTC (link)
It is, in fact, the opera that was being discussed. The name was given, and I couldn't've spelled it before seeing it typed out, but that was definitely it.

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[info]burger_eater
2007-09-07 05:57 pm UTC (link)
I'm boggled by the idea that comments I made were actually useful. Thanks.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2007-09-07 10:49 pm UTC (link)
No, no, thank you!

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