kate_nepveu: World Fantasy Con: Urban Fantasy--Beyond the Usual Suspects

Kate (

kate_nepveu) wrote,
@ 2007-11-06 21:45:00

Entry tags:

books, cons, sff, world fantasy con

World Fantasy Con: Urban Fantasy--Beyond the Usual Suspects

Description:

World Fantasy Con: Urban Fantasy—Beyond the Usual Suspects
It seems as if most urban fantasy uses the familiar European myths. What other possibilities are there? Which authors have successfully exploited them?
Ekaterina Sedia, Ernest Lilley (m), Marie Brennan, Melanie Fletcher, Jenna Black

(In post-panel conversation, Sedia and Brennan noted the problems with using "exploited" in that description.)

The vast majority of this panel was not about existing or possible non-European urban fantasies, but about cultural appropriation. The responsibility for this rests with the moderator. Not only did he seem to want to talk a lot about cultural appropriation, his comments—well, my most charitable interpretation was that his phrasing and manner were deliberately exaggerated to provoke discussion and, possibly, as an attempt at humor. (He specifically introduced his most offensive remark as a joke.) And they were certainly provoking.

This report is not about that part of the panel, because I do not want to host a discussion of cultural appropriation at this time. If the topic interests you, there's much to read already (try starting with International Blog Against Racism Week's posts), and of course you can always start a discussion in your own space. However, after the writing-and-cultural-defaults discussions this summer, well, I'd say I have PTSD on writing and race discussions except that it would trivialize actual trauma. Regardless: discussion of cultural appropriation: DO NOT WANT.

Here's what my notes boil down to, then:

Urban fantasies using non-European myths:

Lilith Saintcrow, Dante Valentine series (Anubis features prominently)
Neil Gaiman, American Gods ("mythology fanfic"—Brennan) and Anansi Boys
Liz Williams, Detective Chen series (Chinese Heaven and Hell as two other locations that characters move between routinely)
Sergei Lukyanenko, Night Watch trilogy (translated from the Russian and set in Russia; Brennan commented that the mythology felt much more generic than the mundane aspects)
Paper Cities, an anthology edited by Sedia
Jenn Reese, Jade Tiger (Chinese-American protagonist)
C.E. Murphy, the Walker Papers, starting with Urban Shaman (American Indian themes, maybe protagonist? (first is on the to-read bookcase))
Tim Powers, Last Call, Expiration Date (American fantasy; though Last Call is the Fisher King in Las Vegas)
Sean Stewart's non-secondary-world fantasy [with varying degrees of urbanity, I think]

General comments:

Brennan: there are two extreme poles of approach: on one hand, there's the American Gods diaspora, and on the other, why can't I do urban fantasy set in India?
Sedia: re: filing serial numbers off cultures: that's probably easier in secondary worlds, since urban fantasy takes place in urban, contemporary, real places.
Brennan maintains an extensive list of multi-cultural fantasy.

After the panel:

K.J. Bishop, The Etched City
Catherynne M. Valente, The Orphan's Tales
Ian McDonald, River of Gods (set in India)

So: let's do the panel here. Comments on the books listed above? Recommendations of other books? Really cool things that haven't been written yet but should be? And if people want to give their definitions of urban fantasy, go ahead—though I'm not particularly interested in picking a definition as long as I know what you're using.

[Edited to promote a link from the comments: swan_tower has broader questions over in panel, take two.]

(Post a new comment)

buymeaclue
2007-11-07 03:05 am UTC (link)

I'm not sure how much of a stickler you want to be, but I thought that River of Gods is science fiction, not fantasy? I haven't read it (though I've heard impressive things, and mean to), though, so maybe I misunderstand.

Also in the department of books I've not yet quite managed to read, I would think Sedia's Secret History of Moscow would have to count.

I quite liked Jade Tiger, though the feel of it is not especially non-Western, if that makes any sense. This also goes for Lisa Goldstein's Dark Cities Underground, a lovely book, that makes use of some Egyptian myth (along with others).

Depending on whether you'd want to include Carribean-influenced work, you could have Nalo Hopkinson and Toby Buckell.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

kate_nepveu
2007-11-07 03:09 am UTC (link)

Oh, yeah, _River of Gods_ came up when I was saying after the panel that I just wanted something _different_.

And yes, either Sedia was being modest or I didn't write it down because I'd bought _Paper Cities_ and figured it would remind me, and then I failed.

Thanks for reminding me of _Dark Cities Underground_--I liked it, but it's been a while.

I'm perfectly willing to put Hopkinson & Buckell on my list of things to read; how urban are their books, can you say?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	buymeaclue 2007-11-07 03:12 am UTC (link)
	You know, I think my attention was slipping. Toby's novels are SF (he has fantasy short stories, but I can't remember which). And I guess "not very" would be the best answer for Hopkinson, in that they aren't city-heavy (at least those that I've read). But, for example, The New Moon's Arms is contemporary. Island town fantasy rather than urban, I guess. But wonderful. (Reply to this)(Parent)

marykaykare
2007-11-07 03:51 am UTC (link)

I'm currently reading the first of Williams' Inspector Chen novels. It's entertaining, but I've been wondering about the whole cultural appropriation thing. Also, while the Hell in the books is very definitely non-Christian the parts that take place in this world don't feel especially foreign to me. It's supposedly set in a Singapore franchise city, Singapore 3, but it doesn't feel like that at all. Nor do the characters seem esp. Asian. I don't know if it would scratch your 'something different' itch.

I've read Crystal Rain, the first of Buckell's books I wouldn't call it either urban or fantasy. It *is* distinctly Caribbean and non-white, but not so much otherwise. Pretty definitely science fiction and much of it takes place in the jungle or in small villages. There *is* a city, but it isn't important as a city so much as a fort.

MKK

MKK

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	coalescent 2007-11-07 07:59 am UTC (link)
	the parts that take place in this world don't feel especially foreign to me. It's supposedly set in a Singapore franchise city, Singapore 3, but it doesn't feel like that at all. To be fair, Singapore itself doesn't feel especially foreign. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sienamystic 2007-11-08 03:13 am UTC (link)
	Very true. It's pretty sleek and shiny - even the grubby areas still manage to feel tidy. I quite like the Inspector Chen books. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 02:40 pm UTC (link)
	I haven't heard much about Liz Williams' books in terms of cultural appropriation or not, and I haven't read them myself. I'd be interested to hear your concerns when you're done, though. (Reply to this)(Parent)

scifantasy
2007-11-07 03:57 am UTC (link)

It's definitely not urban fantasy, but for a good example of non-European mythology and settings in fantasy, Michael Stackpole's "Age Of Discovery" series is Chinese- and Aztec-inspired mythology and setting. (He acknowledges 1421 as a serious influence.) It's pretty good, too.

Hm. Something else jumps to mind--one of the stories in My Big Fat Supernatural Wedding (it had a Jim Butcher story in it. I'm a sucker, I know), the one by...*Google* Lori Handeland, is more in the "paranormal romance" genre, but a lot of the mythology is Native American. Ojibwe, specifically. And that would be sort of urban fantasy, wouldn't it? In the "modern world, characters behind a Masquerade" sense?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 02:42 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks for the recs. I don't think I've ever read any Stackpole. _Supernatural Wedding_ was on my library/sale list because I believe it has a story by Susan Krinard, a followup to her "Murder Entailed" in _Murder by Magic_, which I liked. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	scifantasy 2007-11-07 02:56 pm UTC (link)
	Stackpole...well, his best known work is media tie-ins--he's done some of the better Star Wars novels and a fair amount of Battletech--but when writing original, he tends to do fantasy. It's not urban--medieval world and all--but I don't know if I can call it high fantasy either. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sartorias 2007-11-07 04:14 am UTC (link)
	Urban fantasy to me strongly suggests Latin American magic realism (a term that seems an oxymoron if there ever was one), probably because some of the strongest books and stories from that part of the world have been in city settings, where magic is a part of life (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 02:42 pm UTC (link)
	Really? My knowledge of magic realism is basically non-existent, so that's good to know. I'm not sure it's likely to be a genre for me, but I'm more inclined to try something now, so thanks. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sartorias 2007-11-07 03:54 pm UTC (link)
	If you do try it, I beg you to go straight to the top, with 100 years of solitude--it's just stunning. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 03:57 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks! I'll put it on the list. (Reply to this)(Parent)

squirrel_monkey
2007-11-08 08:39 pm UTC (link)

I very much second that -- and recommend Julio Cortazar in addition to Gabriel Garcia Marquez, although he is often billed as experimental than fantastic. But his short stories, especially Axolotl it's online here: http://www.cis.vt.edu/modernworld/d/axolotl.html), very much have a sensibility of UF (at least, in my mind -- this straining after the impossible.)

Other things you can find in translation and which are at least borderline UF-ish: Strugatski brothers, Zoran Zivkovich, Milan Kundera.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-09 02:30 am UTC (link)
	Thanks for the link--I've put it on the to-read list--and the other recommendations. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	swan_tower 2007-11-07 04:29 am UTC (link)
	My own thoughts are so lengthy I've made them a post on my own journal. I pose about six major questions there we never got to in the panel, so folks are welcome to hop on over and supply their opinions. (And additional questions for discussion, if any.) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 11:54 am UTC (link)
	Thanks for the cross-reference! (Reply to this)(Parent)

kgbooklog
2007-11-07 05:00 am UTC (link)

Murphy's heroine is half Cherokee, half Celtic. AFAICT, there's more American Indian elements than anything else. Be warned that there's a novella set between the first two novels.

Patricia Briggs' Mercy Thompson series also has an American Indian supernatural heroine. But everything else we see is European, mainly because they (especially the vampires) viewed the locals as direct, personal threats and did their best to hunt them into extinction.

Carrie Vaughn's Kitty Takes a Holiday also had some American Indian bits (though the previous two books didn't).

Liz Williams is quite good; think Barry Hughart writing near-future police procedurals.

And since we're asking for "non-European", I'll add F. Paul Wilson's Repairman Jack, since that stuff is pretty much entirely original.

Justine Larbalestier's Magic of Reason trilogy is half set in Australia, but I'm not sure if the magic is particularly Australian. It's not all that European though.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	weatherglass 2007-11-07 06:08 am UTC (link)
	Thanks for the warning about the C.E. Murphy novella; I'd been meaning to pick up the second book and had no idea that existed. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 02:44 pm UTC (link)
	Repairman Jack--is "vigilante hero" an accurate description? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rysmiel 2007-11-07 02:59 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, though on the extreme libertarian end of the spectrum of such, rather than the more conventionally right-wing associations the phrase normally has for me. I don't honestly know what it is that keeps me reading them, I'd have a hard time pushing them as having any actual virtues. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 03:01 pm UTC (link)
	Heh. That's a lovely way if backhanded way of putting it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 03:02 pm UTC (link)
	"If" is not the word I wanted there. => (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kgbooklog 2007-11-07 03:10 pm UTC (link)
	He considers himself to be a professional vigilante. And while I'm giving warnings, I should note that these books (especially the later ones) are more Horror than Urban Fantasy. (Reply to this)(Parent)

weatherglass
2007-11-07 06:06 am UTC (link)

I just read Urban Shaman, and mostly enjoyed it. The main character is half Cherokee, half Irish. The Irish/English myth gets more plot space in that book, while the Cherokee elements get more character space; I haven't read the second one yet.

The Etched City is pretty solidly secondary world fantasy, but does draw on non-European, er... ambiance? There are camels, anyway, and a tropical city; but I thought it had more to do with a general "decadent, exotic city" trope than any particular culture.

Delia Sherman's Changeling has a potpourri of elements, some made up, some out of fairy tales, some out of other books; it includes some non-European bits, including a tengu and the Assyrian Lion at the museum.

Tea With the Black Dragon had Chinese(?) dragons, I think, but I haven't read that in years.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	nancylebov 2007-11-07 09:55 am UTC (link)
	Yes, the dragon in Tea with the Black Dragon is Chinese. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 02:46 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks for the additional information. I adore _Tea with the Black Dragon_, so I'm glad to be reminded of it, though I can't remember now how urban it is. The sequel _Twisting the Rope_ should be avoided at all costs. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	papersky 2007-11-07 12:59 pm UTC (link)
	Terri Windling's The Wood Wife. Like some of Sean Stewart, it's more rural than urban, but it's modern American people and ancient American spirits. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 02:49 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks. I thought we owned that, but it's not showing on LibraryThing; I'll double-check the shelves and then perhaps consult the library. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	leighdb 2007-11-07 02:30 pm UTC (link)
	Tim Powers: Last Call was really good, but I don't see why it got mentioned here, since as you noted it's heavily couched in European myth. It seems like The Anubis Gates would be a much better match. Unless the urban setting (London) gets disqualified for being a historical urban setting? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-07 02:47 pm UTC (link)
	Well, _Last Call_ also has the very American Vegas thing going on. But I was just reporting, not adding my own. Also, I can't remember _The Anubis Gates_ at all except "time travel, confusing as hell, poets". => (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

leighdb
2007-11-07 02:57 pm UTC (link)

Well, _Last Call_ also has the very American Vegas thing going on.

Yeah, but the whole central... thingy, there, was the Fisher King. Which is very Europe. 'Zallumsane.

Also, I can't remember _The Anubis Gates_ at all except "time travel, confusing as hell, poets".

Heh. It actually makes much more sense when you reread it...

Well, as the title suggests, even though it's set in London (at various time periods), the mythology is pretty much exclusively Egyptian-based - unless you count historical European persons (Coleridge, Lord Byron, etc.) popping up in the narrative as "European myth".

(Reply to this)(Parent)

sparrow_wings
2007-11-07 11:06 pm UTC (link)

The Orphan's Tales are wonderful, twisty, entrancing books, and there are definitely traces of myths from all over the place, as well as a lot of stuff that's just incredibly weird, but I wouldn't call them urban fantasies. Many of the stories are about or set in cities, but the way Valente draws characters, the logic her plots follow, the language she uses, they all say very clearly (well, to me) "fairy tale." They don't have the modern atmosphere or quite the same approach to reality/realism that you'd find in, say, the Vlad Taltos books or Holly Black's books. I would say they're more of an epic -- cast of thousands, story of the whole world, that kind of thing -- but very different from Martin, Jordan, etc. etc. You shoudl read them! Even though they're not urban fantasy.

The Dante Valentine series -- Anubis is Dante's god, sure, but he doesn't much influence the plot or the setting that I noticed. There is another character who uses Caribbean magic, but again, that seemed more of a coincidential detail than something crucial to the story. They read to me as North American urban fantasy adventures.

Detective Inspector Chen -- I read the first two, and I don't remember feeling like the characters and setting weren't Asian enough; I thought the portrayal of Singapore 3 and surrounding mythological realms was really interesting and well-done. But the characters, motivations, and romances all rang false to me, so... I stopped reading them. ^^.

Um, what else... Elizabeth Bear's collection, The Chains That You Refuse, has a couple of stories that fit the bill: "One-Eyed Jack and the Suicide King" (United States) and "Seven Dragons Mountains" (Hong Kong). And Jon Courtenay Grimwood has a book, 9Tail Fox, a mystery/thriller/character study set in San Francisco's Chinatown, with one fantastic element of, guess what, a nine-tailed fox, that is also worth reading... I wrote about it ~~rather~~ slightly more coherently over here.

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	kate_nepveu 2007-11-08 01:27 am UTC (link)
	Deleted and reposted to fix a meaning-changing typo. _The Orphan's Tales_ are gradually creeping further and further up my list. Thanks. Yeah, the bits and pieces I've seen about the Dante Valentine series don't make it look particularly different to me. _9Tail Fox_ is likely to not be my kind of thing, but it sounds interesting all the same. Thanks for the link. (Reply to this)(Parent)

tool_of_satan
2007-11-09 05:17 am UTC (link)

I read the first of Liz Williams' Detective Inspector Chen books and didn't particularly care for it - I explain why at some (possibly too great) length here.

As for the general question of non-European urban fantasy, I can only think of a few things, although I am sure I have read more. Dave Duncan's The Reaver Road is mostly set in a city which is inspired by ancient Mesopotamia more than anything else, although it's not a precise copy of anything. And, while his King's Blades series is mostly set in a Europe-analogue, the last book, The Jaguar Knights, spends considerable time in the capital of that world's version of the Aztec Empire. Sadly the book, while OK, is the weakest of the series. The Reaver Road I can certainly recommend.

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	kate_nepveu 2007-11-09 02:49 pm UTC (link)
	_The Reaver Road_ is fun, though I seem to recall liking the second Omar book better--it's been a while. Yeah, Chad read _The Jaguar Knights_ and his reaction suggests to me that it was entirely skippable. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	redrose3125 2007-11-09 09:00 pm UTC (link)
	Charles de Lint mixes a lot of stuff up in his Newford books - European, but not only European... (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-09 09:04 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks. I've developed a mild allergy to those, but it's true that he mixes in some Native stories in the stuff I did read. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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