kate_nepveu: Unintentionally Racist Small Talk, Holiday Edition

Kate (

kate_nepveu) wrote,
@ 2007-11-29 21:52:00

Entry tags:

cranky, race

Unintentionally Racist Small Talk, Holiday Edition

In the week leading up to Thanksgiving, two different people asked me if I celebrated Thanksgiving.

Today, a store clerk was remarkably persisent on the where-are-you-really-from front. Was I from Indonesia? Where was I from? No, where were my ancestors from? Oh, they have a store clerk from Korea now. His name is such-and-such. [*] He's a student at the university—am I a student too? ("No, I'm a lawyer.")

[*] Because, of course, by virtue of us both being born in Korea, I was supposed to know him or to care.

Three data points make up a sweeping conclusion: the holidays seem to bring out people's unexamined defaults about race. I think it's because people feel obligated to make more small talk, which tends to be very mindless.

So, if you're not setting out to make the other person in the conversation want to pull their hair out, some suggestions:

Avoid any assumptions about people's holiday practices. My current plan for small talk is, "so, how are you spending your Thursday / Tuesday / week?" I think this leaves open a range of answers, including "I'm having a quiet day in / going to the movies / volunteering," with the optional addition "because I'm British / a Jehovah's Witness / whatever, I don't celebrate Thanksgiving / Christmas / whatever."
If you're white, think about the circumstances under which you'd ask another white person their ancestry. Then don't ask your non-white friends or acquaintances about their ancestry under other circumstances. This seems likely to rule out inadvertently-offensive scenarios.

Comments, additions?

(Background reading, if you don't understand why the above conversations drove me crazy: IBARW: Don't ask me my nationality, plus clarification in comments.)

(Post a new comment)

	janni 2007-11-30 03:16 am UTC (link)
	While the reverse assumption is that if you're white, of course you celebrate things like Christmas. It's apparently very difficult for folks to accept that they don't just automatically know the rituals of other folks' lives. (Reply to this)(Thread)

kate_nepveu
2007-11-30 03:29 am UTC (link)

Yeah, the Yuletide thing [*] recently made me a lot more aware of how it feels to be actively not-celebrating Christmas in the U.S., rather than my pure secular, not-Christian-but-Christmas-trees-are-pretty attitude. Which is why I brought that up, too.

[*] Details of which are not relevant if you don't already know them.

Dear people in the majority: not everyone is like you. HTH. HAND.

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buymeaclue, 2007-11-30 04:30 pm UTC (Expand)

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kate_nepveu, 2007-11-30 04:38 pm UTC (Expand)

	cerebralsilicate.myopenid.com 2007-11-30 03:24 am UTC (link)
	As a data point, I, the whitest white guy ever, frequently have to explain to random members of the public that no, I'm not Australian. Or Irish. And that, really, my Englishness is purely temporary at this point. I submit that any non-default marker, even if it's not a racial one, triggers this. (Reply to this)(Thread)

kate_nepveu
2007-11-30 03:36 am UTC (link)

I'm sure it's annoying to have people unfamiliar with your accent misplace it.

I'm also sure that it's a lot more rational for Americans to ask someone with a Commonwealth-ish accent where they're from, as opposed to asking someone with an entirely American accent whether they are actually American, no, *really*.

I refer you to these two posts (and their comments) for further thoughts:

http://jonquil.livejournal.com/603766.html
http://rivka.livejournal.com/305457.html

(edited for more useful links)

Edited at 2007-11-30 03:39 am UTC

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(no subject) -

cerebralsilicate.myopenid.com, 2007-11-30 05:26 am UTC (Expand)

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kate_nepveu, 2007-11-30 12:03 pm UTC (Expand)

	rachelmanija 2007-11-30 03:40 am UTC (link)
	Ack, in a search for something that a set of randomly assembled people could all relate to, I just collectively asked everybody in my physical therapist's office what they did for Thanksgiving. (Luckily they all did celebrate it.) FAIL. Next time I'll just say, "And what did you all do for the weekend?" (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-30 03:45 am UTC (link)
	I'd like data on this--I generally think that Thanksgiving is almost universal in America, but I saw someone on Making Light saying that as a recent immigrant, Thanksgiving didn't mean much to them--which made me wonder. But IMO you don't get FAIL in caps for that. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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redbird, 2007-11-30 04:12 am UTC (Expand)

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kate_nepveu, 2007-11-30 02:40 pm UTC (Expand)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-30 11:59 am UTC (link)
	It occurs to me, the next morning, that I've missed a big hole in my own ignorance. I have no idea whether there is any generalizable or at least relatively common practice of not celebrating Thanksgiving among American Indians. (edited for precision) Edited at 2007-11-30 12:02 pm UTC (Reply to this)(Parent)

yhlee
2007-11-30 04:04 am UTC (link)

Also, for [expletive deleted]'s sake, if you see an Asian face but you also already know the person you're talking to was born in Houston and spent the majority of her life in the U.S., do not ASSUME that she does not know what Thanksgiving is.

Also also, NEGATIVE POINTS to any idiots who call Chusok (Korean harvest festival) "Korean Thanksgiving." It apparently predates Thanksgiving by centuries.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

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	agrumer 2007-11-30 05:00 am UTC (link)
	Also also, NEGATIVE POINTS to any idiots who call Chusok (Korean harvest festival) "Korean Thanksgiving." It apparently predates Thanksgiving by centuries. I don't understand the relationship between those two sentences. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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oyceter, 2007-11-30 05:59 am UTC (Expand)

adrian_turtle
2007-11-30 05:07 am UTC (link)

Also also, NEGATIVE POINTS to any idiots who call Chusok (Korean harvest festival) "Korean Thanksgiving." It apparently predates Thanksgiving by centuries.

Sukkot also predates the American holiday by many centuries, yet it never occurred to me that there could be anything offensive in describing Sukkot as "Jewish Thanksgiving." (Even without looking at historical clues that Puritans took the idea of Sukkot from Hebrew scripture, and tried to translate it to their community.) Harvest festivals are harvest festivals, and American Thanksgiving is the one American tend to be most familiar with.

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agrumer, 2007-11-30 07:50 pm UTC (Expand)

ex_greythist387
2007-11-30 07:02 am UTC (link)

hmm--I've been seeing American-born, Korean-dwelling people call it "Korean Thanksgiving" on blogs, at least superficially for the sake of shorthand for friends/relatives who're reading. They don't seem to be imagining that the two arose for the same reason or are celebrated in the same ways; it's a quick analogy.

(I was trying to find a recipe for songpyeon that doesn't presuppose the existence of friends/relatives whom one can ask for help. I failed.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	cakmpls 2007-11-30 02:24 pm UTC (link)
	Most of the "idiots" I have heard or read refer to Chusok as "Korean Thanksgiving" were Korean or Korean American. Humans are comparison-drawers, analogy-makers. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	delux_vivens 2007-11-30 06:16 pm UTC (link)
	do not ASSUME that she does not know what Thanksgiving is. .... buh? wuh? (Reply to this)(Parent)

oyceter
2007-11-30 04:17 am UTC (link)

Ugh, yes! When I was in NY, some random white guy accosted me while I was deciding what to order at a bakery and was saying something incomprehensible while pointing at a croissant. He finally said, "Cheese." "Okaaaay," I thought, and just figured he was trying to figure out what it was.

Then he came up to me a little later and asked, "Do you speak Chinese?" I sadly wasn't fast enough to lie, and said yes, to which he said, "I'm learning it!"

I rolled my eyes at him and said, "Uh... so?" and he walked away in a huff.

Like, dude! Don't randomly speak incomprehensible Chinese to any person who looks Asian and then expect them to actually want to practice the language with you, on the OFF CHANCE that you a) picked someone of the right ethnicity and b) picked someone who actually speaks it.

Anyway. GRRRR to stupid people.

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	yhlee 2007-11-30 04:31 am UTC (link)
	Sometimes I fantasize about learning how to say "Sorry, I only speak Turkish" with a really convincing Turkish accent just to screw with stupid people like that. (I know a very little written Turkish, but would be afraid to try to speak it.) Or Swahili, or something. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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oyceter, 2007-11-30 04:35 am UTC (Expand)

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yhlee, 2007-11-30 04:36 am UTC (Expand)

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mikeda, 2007-11-30 02:21 pm UTC (Expand)

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skwidly, 2007-11-30 03:09 pm UTC (Expand)

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cakmpls, 2007-11-30 05:56 pm UTC (Expand)

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skwidly, 2007-11-30 06:44 pm UTC (Expand)

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mikeda, 2007-11-30 10:39 pm UTC (Expand)

	cakmpls 2007-11-30 02:20 pm UTC (link)
	This is not something only white Americans do. Koreans in Korea try to speak English to white tourists from non-English-speaking countries. People, regardless of ethnicity, who are learning a language, or who have the rudiments of it and want to practice, tend to jump at any opportunity. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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kate_nepveu, 2007-11-30 02:39 pm UTC (Expand)

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papersky, 2007-11-30 03:20 pm UTC (Expand)

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kate_nepveu, 2007-11-30 04:23 pm UTC (Expand)

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delux_vivens, 2007-11-30 06:23 pm UTC (Expand)

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cakmpls, 2007-11-30 06:48 pm UTC (Expand)

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kate_nepveu, 2007-11-30 06:52 pm UTC (Expand)

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delux_vivens, 2007-11-30 07:22 pm UTC (Expand)

	delux_vivens 2007-11-30 07:24 pm UTC (link)
	was he showing off madd langwage skillz or trying to hit on you? ew. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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oyceter, 2007-11-30 07:27 pm UTC (Expand)

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delux_vivens, 2007-11-30 07:29 pm UTC (Expand)

veejane
2007-11-30 04:49 am UTC (link)

I would just like to put in a note from those of us who hate people all year round that small talk leads to stupidity, and stupidity leads to fear, and fear leads to hatred. Yes, my friends, small talk is a tool of the Dark Side, and if only we could all be politely standoffish, tragedy might be averted!!

Also, I imagine people would be much more cautious about what they say if we all wore light sabers tucked into our belts.

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yhlee
2007-11-30 04:54 am UTC (link)

I imagine people would be much more cautious about what they say if we all wore light sabers tucked into our belts.

I endorse this plan. Where can I get my own personal light saber? And does it come in a "light spork" model?

(Okay,

kate_nepveu, I'll stop spamming your comments now...)

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	kate_nepveu 2007-11-30 12:10 pm UTC (link)
	For that, I give you what would be a RASSEF Award if we were on RASSEF, with bzzt noises. (I have to come up with a better name for that. Internet, Blog, or LJ Award just doesn't sound right. Comment of the Undefined Time Period Award? Hmm.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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veejane, 2007-11-30 03:42 pm UTC (Expand)

fledgist
2007-11-30 12:51 pm UTC (link)

I get three kinds of comment:

(1) 'What are you?' I get that a lot.

(2) Comments in bad Spanish. People (mostly white Americans) who address me in bad Spanish are shocked when I reply in good English.

(3) Demands that I accept the racial identity that others want for me (this is particularly the case with people who seem to think that I should feel no kinship with half my relatives).

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	kate_nepveu 2007-11-30 02:43 pm UTC (link)
	Your first one is particularly head-desk-y for me, because of the pronoun. My instinctive reaction--which I think would never actually come out of my mouth--is "human, now FOAD." (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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veejane, 2007-11-30 03:45 pm UTC (Expand)

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kate_nepveu, 2007-11-30 04:09 pm UTC (Expand)

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fledgist, 2007-11-30 04:02 pm UTC (Expand)

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redbird, 2007-12-01 02:59 am UTC (Expand)

jsbowden
2007-11-30 01:13 pm UTC (link)

This must be a provincial thing. In Va. Beach, we had a huge Philippine immigrant population, and most of the kids I went to school with were born in the states or had been here since before they could walk. It would never had occurred to me that they would speak anything other than English and celebrate normal US holidays. Here in NoVA, we have a large Korean and Vietnamese population, and all the people I know from those communities are much like the kids from the Philippines that I grew up with...their parents might have accents, but in general, they're all just like us, having grown up here.

So, the sort of rambling point I've been trying to make is that I tend to assume anyone of Asiatic descent that I meet speaks English, might speak a second language if their parents do, and are just as American as the "white" people I know (really, we're beige, and being 1/8 injun, I'm a little more beige than most).

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kate_nepveu, 2007-11-30 04:15 pm UTC (Expand)

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mmcirvin, 2007-12-01 01:42 am UTC (Expand)

papersky
2007-11-30 03:29 pm UTC (link)

That must be phenomenally annoying. What morons.

However, on the "Where do you come from", in my experience of talking to strange random white non-Fan Americans, you don't have to ask them where they/their ancestors are from, they tell you, often in the first sentence. "Hi, I'm Mary Lou and this is my husband Elmer and we live in Little Nowhere, Ohio, and I come from Custard, Idaho, and he was born right in Little Nowhere, where are you from? Oh, Wales, my, Elmer's great grandmother on his father's side came from Wales, but his great-grandfather was French, fancy that." "Walloon, darling." "Walloon, yes, and his other great grandparents... while my own family..."

I'm only exaggerating slightly.

I suppose if it is part of your normal conversation chunter, the presence of people for whom the question is intrusive is going to throw up an even wider divide than it at first appears.

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kate_nepveu, 2007-11-30 04:20 pm UTC (Expand)

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cakmpls, 2007-11-30 05:55 pm UTC (Expand)

where are you from?

pleonastic
2007-12-04 01:17 am UTC (link)

*gah*, how annoying, yeah. though i am convinced that certain ethnicities bring it out more than others (asian more than black, frex), IMO this isn't just about race. i think all sorts of "different" markers cause it. accents are one obvious thing, and that at least makes some sense, but not everyone even gets that one right (i've seen people mistake american accents for foreign). an unusual name might cause it too. some americans will ask people of european ethnicity with striking colouring (such as red irish) about their ancestry. i used to think it had to do with the US being such a young country, and a country with lots of immigrants; many people in the US strike me as mildly obsessed with ancestry. then again, canada is also young and has lots of immigrants and yet isn't obsessed like that.

i look caucasian (i'm mixed) and i got questioned like this all the time when i lived in the US. i do have a (slight) accent, but hardly anyone in canada ever asks, while it was incredibly commonplace in the US. it drove me batty.

for one i don't like the prying. why is this anybody's business? for another, the general ... cluelessness of it grates on me extra hard. sample conversation, one of many, my thoughts in parens:

Q: where are you from?
A: seattle. (actually from across the sound, but why tempt fate.)
Q: no, i mean, where are you really from?
A: really from the olympic peninsula. but before that i lived in new jersey for several years and before that in minnesota, and illinois, and california. (maybe information overload will shut her up.)
Q: no, i mean where were you born?
A: europe. (none of your fucking business, will you get the clue if i evade three times?)
Q: oh really? where in europe? (there is no stopping this woman politely.)
A: the netherlands. (temptation: to name another planet.)
Q: *looks confused*
A: holland? dutch, you know.
Q: oh yeah, with the dykes! (or so i imagine it's spelled, to amuse myself a little.)
Q: say, my cousin has a roommate who's from brussels, maybe you know...
A: *grits teeth*. *shakes head*.
Q: your english is really good!
A: thanks. *teeth are fusing*. (you bet. i _studied_ it, and i've lived here for 15 years. it's probably better than yours. come on, ask me how to spell 'imbecile'.)

maybe i shouldn't whine about it since once, exactly once, i did actually know the other person from amsterdam.

and that's just the start. next are almost inevitably questions about my parents. *gnarrgh*.

i don't think your #2 goes far enough, but i don't know how to word it better. i am so atypical in general that generalizations like that don't hit me where i live. i am not inclined to ask anyone about their ancestry -- caucasian or not -- because i think that information is private, and i feel that about a whole lot of things many americans seem to find perfect ice breakers.

i like your suggestions about holidays.

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