Kate ([info]kate_nepveu) wrote,
@ 2004-10-09 21:06:00
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Entry tags:law, politics

My only comment on the debates

In case you were wondering, Dred Scott didn't say "that the Constitution allowed slavery because of personal property rights," when "That's a personal opinion. That's not what the Constitution says."

In 1856 the Constitution said that slavery was legal, as it had from the beginning. Article I, section 2, paragraph 3, excluded slaves from being fully counted in the census (they were counted as "three fifths of all other Persons"), and section 9 provided that Congress couldn't prohibit importing slaves until 1808. Not all of the Constitution's drafters approved of slavery, but they couldn't get the votes to outlaw it, and so it is undisputed by people with, you know, actual brains that prior to the Thirteenth Amendment, slavery was constitutional.

I was going to write up a post on what Dred Scott did say (some cases, I suggest people read if they want to know what they say, but I've read novels shorter than Dred Scott), but Professor Balkin has beaten me to it:

The problem with Dred Scott is that the Court reached out to decide something completely unnecessary, that blacks couldn't ever be citizens, and it also held that in order to treat southern whites equally with northern whites, they had to have the right under the Due Process Clause to bring their property (slaves) into federal territories, which meant that the federal government couldn't ban slavery there.

That last is a reference to the Missouri Compromise, which some of you may remember from high school history.

Okay, two more comments. One, Bush went on to say, "The Constitution of the United States says we're all -- you know, it doesn't say that. It doesn't speak to the equality of America." (My emphasis.) Excuse me?

Two, Paperweight argues that this statement is actually code for "I will appoint judges who will overturn Roe v. Wade." (Via Political Animal.) I wish I could say I was surprised.



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[info]prince_corwin
2004-10-09 07:00 pm UTC (link)
Okay, two more comments. One, Bush went on to say, "The Constitution of the United States says we're all -- you know, it doesn't say that. It doesn't speak to the equality of America." (My emphasis.) Excuse me?

The text doesn't impart the full impact of the hesitation, and mid-sentence directional change. I think what he meant to say was that the Dred Scott decision "doesn't speak to the quality of America." Which is at least a sensible thing to say.

(As opposed to the rest of his commentary on the Constitution, which was staggeringly incorrect.)

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[info]kate_nepveu
2004-10-09 07:21 pm UTC (link)
What amazing pronoun trouble he must have been having.

I am so glad I decided I would rather spork out my eyes than watch that. (Even _Daily Show_ clips is pushing it.)

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[info]faithhopetricks
2004-10-09 07:28 pm UTC (link)
Wonderful comment -- thank you for posting it. (I nearly went on a Dred Scott rampage in my LJ, but decided against it.)

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[info]marykaykare
2004-10-09 10:07 pm UTC (link)
There's been speculation in the comments of one of Michael Berube's blog (my latest online crush) about why Bush even brought it up. One of the people suggested the connection with the Roe v Wad thing. One fellow in order to test it went to his father, whom he says gets all his news from freeper wingnut sites, and asked him. Dad said, "Well, it's just like Roe v Wade" so there you go.

MKK

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[info]kate_nepveu
2004-10-10 08:08 am UTC (link)
I had no idea that Dred Scott *meant* anything to people who hadn't taken classes in Constitutional law or history!

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[info]desdenova
2004-10-10 09:13 am UTC (link)
It is generally held up, in high school American History classes, as an example of the fallibility of the Supreme Court.

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[info]marykaykare
2004-10-10 02:11 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. Apparently it's code for Roe v Wade in the same way "states rights" is code for "we'll let you keep discriminating against black folks". So what Shrub told his base without the rest of us even knowing was that he'd appoint Supreme Court justices who would favor overturn Roe v Wade. I'll be you, additionally, that he couldn't explain this to you himself, but Karl Rove sure could.

MKK

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[info]bibliotrope
2004-10-09 10:28 pm UTC (link)
"The Constitution of the United States says we're all -- you know, it doesn't say that. It doesn't speak to the equality of America."

Actually, the "all men are created equal" bit comes from the Declaration of Independence. Not the Constitution. Maybe in his obviously confused brain he somehow dimly remembered that.

But note that even there it says "men". Not "men and women," or "people", or "fetuses", or whatever. And given the political realities of 1776 or 1789 it meant, practically, "all free white Protestant males over 21, especially those who own significant amounts of property, are created equal. The rest of you: tough."

Now *there's* a concept for the strict constructionists to try and deal with in the 21st century.

Besides, Bush obviously disagrees that America is equal. He thinks we're far superior to everyone else.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2004-10-10 06:57 am UTC (link)
Well, I was actually thinking of the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause (and the kludge of reading a certain amount of equal-protection-ish stuff into the Fifth Amendment).

I came of age after the fight over the ERA, so I don't know where the strict constructionists stood on that.

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[info]pixelfish
2004-10-10 05:44 am UTC (link)
Ugh. I'd forgotten that statement. I forgot it somewhere in between his statements that sanctions weren't working, and YET Saddam was trying to get around them because he couldn't otherwise get WMDs, and then the bit about how he, Bush, couldn't possibly allow importation of drugs from Canada because those drugs were just like Third World Country drugs.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2004-10-10 06:58 am UTC (link)
Did I mention I was really glad I decided not to watch the debates?

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[info]papersky
2004-10-10 07:18 am UTC (link)
The words as written sound more like an attack on the 13th Amendment.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2004-10-10 08:03 am UTC (link)
Which words? Leaving aside the possible pronoun confusion [info]prince_corwin points to, I read that as clearly saying that Dred Scott was bad, so the Thirteenth Amendment's subsequent passage was good.

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